This thing called holiness
“Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?” Acts 3:12
Lately, I've been pondering this whole concept of holiness...what it means, what it looks like, and how we possess it as Christians. Last Sunday, I spoke on the subject of pursuing peace and holiness from the text in Hebrews 12:14 (this message will be published on our web site by 1/11/07). My main point being that you cannot have true holiness without pursuing peace with others around you. It's as much about reconciliation as it is about consecration. I do not want to belabor that subject again here but continue on with what I see in Scripture about holiness.
I feel compelled to share this because I believe this subject has confused so many Christians, either by being ignored altogether or abused by a legalistic few professing a version of holiness that is no more than Christian humanism (which is not Christian at all!). I believe this has greatly impeded the realization of any true holiness and has resulted in much damage to the honest seeker's pursuit and walk with the Lord, even negating the Cross of Christ and the efficacy of grace. I also want to say up front to please bear with me on this post if it seems a bit theological rather conversational. I feel in order to make my points, some theological background is necessary. I will try to keep the doctrinal aspects as concise and conversational as possible.
Before leaving the subject of Hebrews 12:14, I do want to say this. That all who hold faith in Christ have an innate desire to pursue holiness; that is, that God's holiness would be made manifest in their lives. They cannot help but have this desire because the Holy Spirit dwells in them, and He, of course, is holy. If one finds that he or she does not have this abiding desire, it can only mean one of two things. Either this person is not born from above (John 3:3) or the cares of this life have choked out and deadened the very life of Christ in their hearts.
Our understanding of what holiness is comes from a couple of Hebrew and Greek words in the Old and New Testament. First, the Hebrew word qodesh, which means apartness, separateness, sacredness, as pertaining to God; and to be separated by, set apart by God, as pertaining to man. In the New Testament, two main Greek words are used...hagiosune, which means majesty, moral purity; and hagiosmos, which means to be concrecrated to, the effect of consecration and sanctification of our hearts and lives (as used in Heb.12:14). These will serve to describe my usage of the word here.
Having laid the groundwork, I will continue with my thoughts on the subject. First, at the risk of repeating my remarks from last Sunday, we must understand that we have no ability whatsoever, nor will we ever have the ability, to "attain" to any state of holiness through efforts of our own. Which means that you and I will never be any more holy or less holy than we are right now; we have absolutely no holiness apart from God's divine holiness residing in us. This is precisely what Peter meant in our text from Acts 3 above. Peter and John were only able to heal the lame man because of their faith in the fact that God is good, not because Peter or John were, or ever will be, good.
The only holiness we can ever have is what we "obtain" as a free gift by faith. Furthermore, until we see the hopelessness of our ability to "make ourselves holy," and Christ's total ability to do so, we will never experience true holiness. For if holiness could've been attained by self-discipline or even through outward spiritual disciplines, then the Pharisees would've certainly attained it! (They prayed, studied, fasted, tithed...more than you are I ever will!) Yet, it was Jesus Himself who told them that their father was the devil! This is not to minimize our need for spiritual disciplines, only to point out that doing those things, in and of themselves, do not make one holy.
Christ is not our sanctifier, He Himself is our sanctification. (See I Cor.1:30). What I believe that the Bible means by this is that Christ does not sanctify (make us holy) by doing something to us that makes us a better, "holier" people who have attained some improved level of moral purity; but instead, He resides in us, watching over and working in our souls, both to will and do continually (See Phil.2:13).
Furthermore, the degree of manifest holiness in us (as it is in our experience in everyday life) is totally proportional to the degree that we "embrace Christ" and our hearts (soul) realize the reality that we are only complete in Him (Col.2:10). In order for this to be revealed to us, we must first allow the Holy Spirit to show us that God has already given up on us ever achieving some righteous state, so that we will stop all other means of attaining godliness other than receiving His holiness by faith.
Why is this self-revelation necessary for us to see true holiness? Because we, even as otherwise mature Christians, tend to see our "sins" as some temporary slip in our behavior that can somehow be remedied with enough moral resolve and effort. But God sees it as a permanent defect with us. In this sense, we literally "lack God's glory" (Rom.3:23). The Bible never teaches self-denial (that I should or even can stop doing this or that); it only teaches denial of self (Matt.16:24; Mark 8:34). In other words, it is not what we do that must die, but our trying to save ourselves (or sanctify ourselves) that must die. This usually means, for believers and unbelievers alike, a seemingly endless cycle of failing over and over again, struggling in every way to make ourselves right before God, redoubling our resolve to "stop sinning," only to fail again, until we finally come to the end of ourselves and, at last, surrender all notions of ever being good, so that God can be good for us. It is not until we reach this death of self, that we receive life and enter God's rest (Heb.4:1)
I cannot possibly overstate this fact. Until we reach this point of ultimate frustration and see the utter futility of clinging on to our self-life, trying be good, we cannot begin any pursuit of true holiness. But when we do finally rest from our dead works (Heb.6:1), Christ can then begin to rule in our hearts and "be holy" through us and for us. Therefore, our holy living and moral purity is directly proportional to how much we have allowed Christ's holiness and moral purity to rule in us. We have no holiness apart from this, period. Christ then becomes our sanctification only insofar as the utter failure of our soul-man is revealed to us, and only insofar that we have "received Christ," or "put" Him on (Gal.3:27).
This is why Jesus said to the rich young ruler, "Why do you call me good? Only One is good and that is God." (Matt.19:17) Jesus was making a statement that defines the very core of true Christianity; which is, the only goodness we have is imputed goodness, that is, God's goodness freely and undeservedly given to us by God. As Paul also said in I Cor.4:7, "For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" The only difference between me and the most vile sinner on earth is God's mercy and grace daily working in me. In other words, my only boast is Christ!
How does this look in our everyday lives? First, we must understand that God gave us a free will. He didn't have to, but He did because He wants our love, and love is not love at all unless it is freely given. And while it is true that we cannot possibly come to God unless the Father draw us, unless He chooses us first; it is equally true that we must choose Him. In other words, we must choose to be chosen! Indeed, from Genesis to Revelation, God is asking man to choose whom he will serve. As an old preacher said long ago..."Without God, we cannot not; without us, He will not." The truth is, we use our will every moment of every day, either to serve God or to serve ourselves. So, in this light, we will begin to experience the sanctified life as we continually use our will to surrender and yield to the Spirit in us, turning over the reigns, if you will, to Christ to rule and execute His ability and power in our affairs, thus, bringing to our experience the ability to do His will. This is refered to in Scripture as "walking in the Spirit"(Rom.8:1-17; Gal.5:16). Plainly speaking, we replace our previous way of doing things, where we found security in self, to turning over complete trust and security in Him who called us out of darkness. From this we see that faith and trust are very intentional and active in our thoughts and decisions; not passive, as James tells us in his epistle.
Let me bring this long post to a close. Even though many so-called legalistic Christians, who like to use "holiness" as a club to rail at all of what's wrong with Christian behavior, may totally agree with the doctrine I have laid out, they are, by their actions, diametrically opposed to what I am saying. They speak of free grace and the all sufficiency of Christ, but carry out their sanctification completely by works. Their humanistic gospel is one filled with fear, confusion, and manipulation, not faith working through love (Gal.5:6). In fact, Paul took the entire letter to the Galatians to condemn this pseudo-spirituality, this counterfeit version of Christianity. God has only one answer to this, "...This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:29). If a true seeker of God cares to turn their focus from self to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of their faith, they will undoubtedly see that Christ is our only victory, Christ Himself is our only sanctification, Christ Himself is our only holiness! He Himself is the narrow path; He is the highway of holiness (Isa.35:8). And to God alone be all glory and honor and praise!
Lately, I've been pondering this whole concept of holiness...what it means, what it looks like, and how we possess it as Christians. Last Sunday, I spoke on the subject of pursuing peace and holiness from the text in Hebrews 12:14 (this message will be published on our web site by 1/11/07). My main point being that you cannot have true holiness without pursuing peace with others around you. It's as much about reconciliation as it is about consecration. I do not want to belabor that subject again here but continue on with what I see in Scripture about holiness.
I feel compelled to share this because I believe this subject has confused so many Christians, either by being ignored altogether or abused by a legalistic few professing a version of holiness that is no more than Christian humanism (which is not Christian at all!). I believe this has greatly impeded the realization of any true holiness and has resulted in much damage to the honest seeker's pursuit and walk with the Lord, even negating the Cross of Christ and the efficacy of grace. I also want to say up front to please bear with me on this post if it seems a bit theological rather conversational. I feel in order to make my points, some theological background is necessary. I will try to keep the doctrinal aspects as concise and conversational as possible.
Before leaving the subject of Hebrews 12:14, I do want to say this. That all who hold faith in Christ have an innate desire to pursue holiness; that is, that God's holiness would be made manifest in their lives. They cannot help but have this desire because the Holy Spirit dwells in them, and He, of course, is holy. If one finds that he or she does not have this abiding desire, it can only mean one of two things. Either this person is not born from above (John 3:3) or the cares of this life have choked out and deadened the very life of Christ in their hearts.
Our understanding of what holiness is comes from a couple of Hebrew and Greek words in the Old and New Testament. First, the Hebrew word qodesh, which means apartness, separateness, sacredness, as pertaining to God; and to be separated by, set apart by God, as pertaining to man. In the New Testament, two main Greek words are used...hagiosune, which means majesty, moral purity; and hagiosmos, which means to be concrecrated to, the effect of consecration and sanctification of our hearts and lives (as used in Heb.12:14). These will serve to describe my usage of the word here.
Having laid the groundwork, I will continue with my thoughts on the subject. First, at the risk of repeating my remarks from last Sunday, we must understand that we have no ability whatsoever, nor will we ever have the ability, to "attain" to any state of holiness through efforts of our own. Which means that you and I will never be any more holy or less holy than we are right now; we have absolutely no holiness apart from God's divine holiness residing in us. This is precisely what Peter meant in our text from Acts 3 above. Peter and John were only able to heal the lame man because of their faith in the fact that God is good, not because Peter or John were, or ever will be, good.
The only holiness we can ever have is what we "obtain" as a free gift by faith. Furthermore, until we see the hopelessness of our ability to "make ourselves holy," and Christ's total ability to do so, we will never experience true holiness. For if holiness could've been attained by self-discipline or even through outward spiritual disciplines, then the Pharisees would've certainly attained it! (They prayed, studied, fasted, tithed...more than you are I ever will!) Yet, it was Jesus Himself who told them that their father was the devil! This is not to minimize our need for spiritual disciplines, only to point out that doing those things, in and of themselves, do not make one holy.
Christ is not our sanctifier, He Himself is our sanctification. (See I Cor.1:30). What I believe that the Bible means by this is that Christ does not sanctify (make us holy) by doing something to us that makes us a better, "holier" people who have attained some improved level of moral purity; but instead, He resides in us, watching over and working in our souls, both to will and do continually (See Phil.2:13).
Furthermore, the degree of manifest holiness in us (as it is in our experience in everyday life) is totally proportional to the degree that we "embrace Christ" and our hearts (soul) realize the reality that we are only complete in Him (Col.2:10). In order for this to be revealed to us, we must first allow the Holy Spirit to show us that God has already given up on us ever achieving some righteous state, so that we will stop all other means of attaining godliness other than receiving His holiness by faith.
Why is this self-revelation necessary for us to see true holiness? Because we, even as otherwise mature Christians, tend to see our "sins" as some temporary slip in our behavior that can somehow be remedied with enough moral resolve and effort. But God sees it as a permanent defect with us. In this sense, we literally "lack God's glory" (Rom.3:23). The Bible never teaches self-denial (that I should or even can stop doing this or that); it only teaches denial of self (Matt.16:24; Mark 8:34). In other words, it is not what we do that must die, but our trying to save ourselves (or sanctify ourselves) that must die. This usually means, for believers and unbelievers alike, a seemingly endless cycle of failing over and over again, struggling in every way to make ourselves right before God, redoubling our resolve to "stop sinning," only to fail again, until we finally come to the end of ourselves and, at last, surrender all notions of ever being good, so that God can be good for us. It is not until we reach this death of self, that we receive life and enter God's rest (Heb.4:1)
I cannot possibly overstate this fact. Until we reach this point of ultimate frustration and see the utter futility of clinging on to our self-life, trying be good, we cannot begin any pursuit of true holiness. But when we do finally rest from our dead works (Heb.6:1), Christ can then begin to rule in our hearts and "be holy" through us and for us. Therefore, our holy living and moral purity is directly proportional to how much we have allowed Christ's holiness and moral purity to rule in us. We have no holiness apart from this, period. Christ then becomes our sanctification only insofar as the utter failure of our soul-man is revealed to us, and only insofar that we have "received Christ," or "put" Him on (Gal.3:27).
This is why Jesus said to the rich young ruler, "Why do you call me good? Only One is good and that is God." (Matt.19:17) Jesus was making a statement that defines the very core of true Christianity; which is, the only goodness we have is imputed goodness, that is, God's goodness freely and undeservedly given to us by God. As Paul also said in I Cor.4:7, "For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?" The only difference between me and the most vile sinner on earth is God's mercy and grace daily working in me. In other words, my only boast is Christ!
How does this look in our everyday lives? First, we must understand that God gave us a free will. He didn't have to, but He did because He wants our love, and love is not love at all unless it is freely given. And while it is true that we cannot possibly come to God unless the Father draw us, unless He chooses us first; it is equally true that we must choose Him. In other words, we must choose to be chosen! Indeed, from Genesis to Revelation, God is asking man to choose whom he will serve. As an old preacher said long ago..."Without God, we cannot not; without us, He will not." The truth is, we use our will every moment of every day, either to serve God or to serve ourselves. So, in this light, we will begin to experience the sanctified life as we continually use our will to surrender and yield to the Spirit in us, turning over the reigns, if you will, to Christ to rule and execute His ability and power in our affairs, thus, bringing to our experience the ability to do His will. This is refered to in Scripture as "walking in the Spirit"(Rom.8:1-17; Gal.5:16). Plainly speaking, we replace our previous way of doing things, where we found security in self, to turning over complete trust and security in Him who called us out of darkness. From this we see that faith and trust are very intentional and active in our thoughts and decisions; not passive, as James tells us in his epistle.
Let me bring this long post to a close. Even though many so-called legalistic Christians, who like to use "holiness" as a club to rail at all of what's wrong with Christian behavior, may totally agree with the doctrine I have laid out, they are, by their actions, diametrically opposed to what I am saying. They speak of free grace and the all sufficiency of Christ, but carry out their sanctification completely by works. Their humanistic gospel is one filled with fear, confusion, and manipulation, not faith working through love (Gal.5:6). In fact, Paul took the entire letter to the Galatians to condemn this pseudo-spirituality, this counterfeit version of Christianity. God has only one answer to this, "...This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” (John 6:29). If a true seeker of God cares to turn their focus from self to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of their faith, they will undoubtedly see that Christ is our only victory, Christ Himself is our only sanctification, Christ Himself is our only holiness! He Himself is the narrow path; He is the highway of holiness (Isa.35:8). And to God alone be all glory and honor and praise!
Labels: Christ, Faith, free will, salvation, sovereignty, Spirituality
posted by Pastor Mel at 1:15 PM
14 Comments:
"And while it is true that we cannot possibly come to God unless the Father draw us, unless He chooses us first; it is equally true that we must choose Him. In other words, we must choose to be chosen!"
As you know the word translated "draw" should read "drag"! Meaning that our free will seems to not be as free as we think! NT: #1670
helkuo (hel-koo'-o); or helko (hel'-ko); to drag (literally or figuratively)
Scripture teaches that we don't choose God...He chooses us, and while I know that this argument has been going on for centuries, we tend to ignore certain scriptures to help us make sense that "we" can do something (like believe or choose)to help in the matter of saving ourselves apart from what God does.
Your article is so right in that it's Jesus' holiness that makes us holy...just as it is the faith of Jesus' that saves us. It's all about God who created and owns all that is. God created man from the dust...and so it is not about free will to choose, believe, to be holy...it's about Who owns us. God has created and chosen us and made us His...to be holy.
Thanks for your comments here. I do wholeheartedly agree with you in that we must be "dragged" to God. I know I certainly was! I was not looking for Him at all when He called me.
There are other factors about God's foreknowledge, that He stands out of time and knows the end from the beginning that are a bit hard to grasp with our finite, time-bound minds, so I won't go into that here. Here's what I will say on this to clarify my position...
Our will is not free in the sense that we can ever initiate a relationship with God. He must "drag" us...we only love Him because He first loved us. But having said that, I don't want to fall into the ditch on either side of the road on this...on the one side, fatalism (we have no part to play) and humanism (it's all up to us to obey).
For if we are to stay on the "road," to use my metaphor, and consider all of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, we have to come to the conclusion that, while we can't come to Him unless He chooses us, He also holds us responsible to respond to His invitation, or "dragging," if you will.
Human free will and God's sovereignty are not in contradiction here. His sovereignty is not limited in any way by allowing us this (limited) free will any more than His sovereginty was limited by creating the Universe in seven days. (He could've thought all of existence into being instantaneously but yet chose to "limit" Himself by creating in seven days.) Of course, the ultimate condescension was God limiting Himself as a man through Jesus Christ!
Throughout human history, God is constantly drawing man to Himself and calling out, "Choose this day whom you will serve...today, I set before you life and death, choose life...Today, if you hear My voice, do not harden your heart." God has, from the beginning, wanted our love, which must be freely given to be love at all. So, we cannot say we have no choice anymore than we can say we can come to Him unless He "drags" us. No one will be able to say God that wasn't fair with them. He gave them everything, including the Blood of His Son.
As you have said, this theological conversation has been going on for a very long time and we may not totally agree, and we may even be talking about the same thing from different perspectives!
And again, what I am saying here is totally consistent with my belief that we have nothing that God hasn't given us, including our holiness, justification, and sanctification. They must all be received (again, we must choose to receive them)to be appropriated. In fact, I am saying that we glorify God on the earth by yielding our will to His will.
Thanks again for some good conversation on this! We as believers need to wrestle with these truths so we are clear on what we believe.
Thanks for your words Mel. I understand your stance...but let me try to make my understanding a little clearer.
"consider all of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, we have to come to the conclusion that, while we can't come to Him unless He chooses us, He also holds us responsible to respond to His invitation, or "dragging," if you will."
God created all and owns all. He set the standards of the fall by giving Adam and Eve the "tree" and allowing the "serpent" to tempt them. God created this knowing that the fall would take place. He created their "will" to fall...from Gen to Rev. we see the work of God's sovereignty and the purpose of HIS will...to redeem man.
In Exodus 21:33-34 God gives us a law, but more importantly a picture of who is responsible..."And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein; the owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his."
In the garden, God dug a pit...man fell not by his "own free will" but because God planted the trees and sent the serpent...God didn't build a fence around the trees or keep the serpent away to protect man from it all. God knew exactly what Adam would do...therefore we begin to see from the beginning that our will is only what God wills for us. BUT...GOD takes responsibility and through His own law...redeems the one who "falls in the pit". He did it by sending His only Son who was crucified on the cross so He could drag man to Himself. He paid for the sin of the whole world because all of creation became subject to death because of the fall...He bought the dead ox! This gives us the understanding that God fulfilled this liability "law" and by His own blood, paid for the sins of the whole world...the world He created and owns.
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Man wants to think that he is in control of himself, his life, and thinks God has no part in the way things are...I understand why we think that way, but that negates the scripture. Isn't it more important to know that God created a plan for His purpose and created our will to be dragged by His will? For whatever reason we need to go through all this...why does man desire his will to be stronger than God's? I have the power to walk to him or walk away...when God created the plan, the need, the purpose...the justification the sanctification...I have more power or the "free will" to over ride His will and His law?
We cringe at the thought that God actually loves mankind and has made a way to redeem His creation. Why is that? God created it all! Did he will that only "some will be saved"? No, He wills that ALL will be saved...and that creates the problem of our theology. Most actually believe (whether they understand their belief or not)that God chooses "wills" most of mankind to an eternal damnation...because man's will is stronger than God's.
I know this is contrary to your doctrines...but I hope you might consider the possibility that we might have our thinking a bit wrong.
I think we agree on most of these things you bring up. Our conversation, which is good, has somewhat "morphed," if you will, to the question of free will and God's sovereignty. This is good because I believe that Scriptures are meant to be "wrestled with" among believers, so that we are sure about what we believe. So, in that spirit, I sincerely thank you for your comments.
Let me first reiterate what I am not saying about free will. I believe that man cannot initiate anything on his own and that, ultimately, our so-called free will accomplishes God's will. God has complete foreknowledge and everything we will choose to do or will ever accomplish has been done in God's mind before time began...for God stands outside of time...past, present, and future are all the same to Him. He sees them all at once. In other words, nothing surprises Him nor can it thwart His plans.
So from our point of view, this may look like free will; from God's view, it's pre-destination. Both are equally true. So our free will to choose does not minimize God's sovereignty in any way. In fact, it is precisely His sovereingty that allows Him to limit Himself in such a way to allow for our cooperation, yet still accomplish His plan! Why does He do this when He doesn't need to? First, because He wants "Sons" from His creation who are made in His image and likeness; He wants our love, and love is not love at all unless it is freely given. And God would not take away our will, for if He did, we would no longer be made in His image.
In fact, you could say that if we had no part to play in God's plan, there would be no reason to pray for God's Kingdom to come and His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven(Matt.6:10). Surely, He wants our involvement in accomplishing His purposes on the earth and because He wants partners, or "ambassadors," those who will represent Him on the earth. Jesus' earthly ministry being the prototype. He waits for us to be willing to be involved.
I understand that you may disagree with what I just said; nonetheless, I could show you many Scriptures throughout the Bible that say, both explicitly and implicitly, exactly what I have just said.
I do want to specifically respond to one of your comments. If I am inferring from what you said correctly, you are saying that all mankind will ultimately be saved from God's wrath (as it is termed in the Bible). If this is what you meant, then I would respectfully disagree.
This is a "ditch" I believe that believers fall into when they totally remove free will (or response-ability)from man. For if we have no part in it, the logic follows, how can God condemn us? (This is where some go down this path to conclude that all must ultimately be saved.) But this is exactly what Paul dealt with when he said that God is glorified in His wrath as much as in His mercy, as it says in Rom.9:22-23..."What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory."
Furthermore, I believe that the Scripture is clear that one must exercise faith in Christ's finished work on the Cross to be saved. And while God can do whatever He wants, and has done everything for us to be saved, we must still "receive" the free gift by faith. That part God will not do for us (even though He knew how we would respond before He created us!)
Yes, God has the answer for everything we need, but Scripture is also very clear that we must ask in order to receive what He has given us. For without faith, we cannot please God (Heb.11:6). So God provides the way and means; our part is to respond.
As far as Christ being the propitiation for sins, He has indeed died for all mankind, but nonetheless, not all will be saved from His wrath. (Much like a manufacturer who may provide savings coupons for their products for shoppers, but only those who choose to actually use them benefit from the savings.)
What this means is that the condemned will be just as forgiven for their sins as the redeemed. What is the difference then? That the former did not believe in faith so they do not appropriate God's gift of forgiveness, much like a whole generation of Israel who perished in the wilderness because they did not mix the promise with faith, therefore, they did not enter into God's rest (Heb.4). For if it didn't matter, the writer of Hebrew would not have continued on to warn us not to fall into the same act of disobedience (Heb.4:11).
I believe that those who say that all will be ultimately saved in the "consummation of all things" come to the wrong conclusion for three main reasons (there are more but I will limit them to three here):
First, they conclude that just because "every knee will bow" that all must be saved. But this is not necessarily true. Satan worships and bows before Almighty God every moment of every day, the demons worshiped Jesus and fell prostrate before Him (Jesus told them to be quiet because He would not accept their worship), but we cannot say they are redeemed. We cannot even say with reasonable confidence that people's hearts will change when they see God as He really is on Judgment Day. Satan saw God as He really is every day and yet rebelled. James called this level of believing "demon faith"(2:19), if you will, which does not save anyone.
Some point to 2 Peter 3, where it says that God is not willing that anyone perish, but that all come to repentance. We have to be careful about drawing our conclusions here. Reading this passage in context, Peter is addressing why God patiently waits before pouring out His wrath on the ungodly. It does not mean that everyone will be saved because He wills it and who can thwart His will. Peter is expressing the same heart as in Ezekiel 18, where it says that God take no pleasure in the wicked being lost, but that they should return to Him and be saved. There would be no reason for God to want them to return if they had no choice but to return to Him. The admonition becomes pointless. Going back to 2 Peter 3, he concludes the thought by telling us also to be patient; to be "steadfast in the faith, and in verse 17 warning us to, "beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked." Again, the warning becomes pointless if all will be saved anyway.
The second reason that I believe that making this conclusion on ultimate reconciliation is erroneous is that it DOES necessitate that Satan and all his demons must also be redeemed (they are part of "all creation"), which is not something any honest believer would want to conclude.
A third reason is, this doctrine would make us conclude that the unrepentant will eventually be "forced" to be saved in the day of judgment. This is not demonstrating God's heart for the object of His love to freely reciprocate His love, but no more than forced slave labor! (If I have to force my wife to love me, does she really love me at all?)
We do have the power to walk away from God's love, but only because He has allowed the possibility for the reasons I mentioned. Again, the fact that He can do this because He wants our hearts freely given, yet can still accomplish His will, shows His astounding power and greatness.
Finally, I want to say again, that I don't believe in humanism either. The means to salvation and holiness is not up to us. What is up to us to freely accept God's free gift by faith. And also knowing that He knows beforehand who will do so, even before He created them. That's all I will say for now on the subject. I pray that you see what I am trying to say.
God bless,
Mel
Rom. 3:11 - no one seeks God
Jn. 6:44 - no one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him.
Philippians 1:29 It's been granted to us to not only believe in Him but to suffer.
Romans 11:32 God consigned all men to disobedience, to have mercy on all.
1 Tim. 4:10 Saviour of all, "especially believers"
Col. 1:20 God reconciles all things in heaven and earth to Himself.
Eph. 1:9-11 God unites all things in heaven and earth in Jesus
Proverbs 16:9, man plans...God directs.
Proverbs 19:21 man plans...God's purpose will be established.
Daniel 4:35 God does according to His will.
Jeremiah 10:23 it's not in man to direct his steps...
Proverbs 21:1 God turns the heart wherever He wills.
Proverbs 20:24 Man's steps are ordered by the Lord...and I'm sure we could find many more.
Mel, thanks for taking the time to reply. I was taught the same doctrines as you've stated and understand your arguments. At fifty years of age, a life of ministry, study, and simply walking with Jesus, I know that we would never come to see eye to eye on many things...and that's okay!
All I know is that when I quit reading what man had to say were the "doctrines"...and chose to read and study myself without trying to make things "fit" into what I was taught...I found the Saviour. I found God whose ways are not my ways and whose thoughts are not like mine! I found a God who loves us and gave Himself for us...knowing that we would not seek Him but He would find us.
Most of my life I had to deliver the "Good News of the Gospel". Choose to believe...and if you don't choose properly, you will burn for eternity. That's the choice...and really not great news.
Yes, we choose things...yes, we make decision...but it's the doctrines that have been taught that keep us from understanding why God will reconcile all things in heaven and on earth to himself...and why God chooses to redeem all of creation.
If what you believe and what most teach...God will save very few people. Most of man from the beginning of time...are destined to an eternity apart from God and His love and mercy.
I guess I didn't understand "This thing called Holiness"...since it seems I got off track from what you have stated...sorry about that. I tend to look at things a bit differently now and I do need to read and re-read before I go off in another direction!
Thanks for your ministry and for your desire to serve and teach.
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I am in total agreement with the Scriptures you have listed. As I said, I do not think we have the ability to plan our own way. We only have the ability to respond, and even that falls within God's will.
Nevertheless, it was indeed our choice in this limited regard, and I could list just as many Scriptural references that say exactly that. And that's precisely why this has been debated for centuries! :-) Of course, we know that to properly understand the meaning of any of these Scriptures, they must not be plucked from their context and the principle must be consistent throughout Scripture.
Also, it's totally okay on getting the discussion "off-track." I think some of the things I said about free will set you off in this direction. And maybe it should!
Like you, I have been around for awhile and have been in ministry and realize that some things we hold on to won't be fully proven until that Day. So I am fine with disagreement on nonessential elements regarding salvation. Regardless of what we both believe, because of our faith in Christ, we will both be saved. And that is good news!
I, too, do not "parrot" doctrines just because other people have said they are so. In fact, most of what I believe I have found on my own, then confirmed their validity from others far much more knowledgable and wiser than I.
But the idea of universal salvation or ultimate reconciliation is not a new or unique doctrine. It's been around around for a long time. And there are a lot who "parrot" these teachers as well, especially, on the Internet. And I am familiar with the teaching in its various forms. I believe I have a good understanding of the arguments, having throroughly studied them out.
Overall,I have personally found that the main teachers of this doctrine make some fundamental errors in their assumptions, then go on to build their case upon those faulty assumptions.
Besides the ones I have already listed in my previous response, like that man's will (one that God gave Him after His own image) has been stripped away from him or does he cooperate with God's plan in any way, which I believe is erroneous. And as I also said before, believing in ultimate conconciliation must "ultimately" lead one to also conclude that Satan and his demons will be saved, to which this supposition now becomes ridiculous. I also mentioned before that this "forced" allegience of the unrepentant to worship Christ in the "consummation of all things", if you will, is not biblical, and not at all what it means by the consummation. Their version sounds more like Catholic purgatory than true salvation by faith to me!
I could list a lot of inconsistencies about this doctrine. I will only mention a couple of others here.
Another such faulty assumption is that all mankind are, by default, God's children. Then, based on this assumption, they make the case that God, who is a good Father, would not forsake or condemn any of His own (which is true). But the premise is wrong, so the conclusion is too. All people are not God's children by flesh and blood, but only by faith. After the flesh, we have all been condemned to die (be separated from God); that is, apart from receiving the free gift of faith in Christ.
It actually says we are, by default, God's enemies until we come to Christ (Rom.5:10). "God's children" are only those who walk after the Spirit, not the flesh (Rom.8:5-8). We become God's children only through believing and exercising faith in Christ(John 1:12-13). So, the argument that what we are teaching is saying that God would be losing most of His children is false. He will not lose any of His children.
Another assumption some of these teachers seem to make is that all are "in Christ." Of course, they have to do this in order to make their ultimate reconcilation doctrine work. But the Bible teaches otherwise. All the promises of God...the blessings of His covenant through the Blood of Christ...only apply to those who are true sons of Abraham by faith (as taught in Romans 4 and other places). Only by faith are those "in Christ." There are no promises that apply to those who walk in the flesh(in other words, faith in themselves or anything else).
Again, there is no "purgatory" to somehow change sinners into saints, apart from faith, after they physically die. What we do on the earth will determine where we go and what we do in eternity.
And faith is not necessarily exercised, and it can be argued that it cannot be exercised, once we see Him as He is. As James said, the demons see Him as he is and tremble, but they are not saved by faith.
And this does not mean in any way that God is not in control, as they incorrectly summize that we teach, but it only means that God's plan allows for it. This takes nothing away from His sovereingty any more than the things we allow that are within our power to control do.
And the Gospel truly is very bad news for God's enemies (all who have become de facto partners with Satan in rebellion against God). As I pointed out before from Romans 9, God will be glorified in His wrath toward His enemies, just as much as He will be glorified by His love and mercy toward all who believe. And we have no right to say that He isn't fair, or totally just in what He does, nor do we even have the right to define what "fair" or being "just" is. This is the essense of what Paul was addressing in Romans 9.
I also find that these teachers of ultimate reconciliation have to contort and twist the Greek and Hebrew meanings of words to redefine the english translations of words like punishment,eternity, and others, in order to make their doctrine work. Of course, this is the very same thing cults do in order to argue against the deity of Christ.
What's ironic about this is how these teachers basically rail against the literally thousands of Greek and Hebrew scholars and Bible translators over the hundreds of years, and who I am sure understand the original languages better than they, of doing the same thing (twisting the meanings)! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Especially, since their arguments taken objectively don't support the case that they suppose they do.
I also find that the postulation that, basically, everyone was deceived for hundreds of years about eternal punishment until recently when of few of these more enligthened souls (most who are not Greek and Hebrew scholars at all) came along to straighten them all out is suspect, to say the least. It certainly sends a red flag up for me. I would tend to err on the side of the thousands of reputable scholars as to how to properly translate words from their original language and use them in their proper context.
Having said this, I also understand that we don't fully understand what the punishment or "eternal separation" will actually look like. Being separated from God's goodness is certainly bad enough! But a lot of what Christians believe about hell or torment comes more from Dante than the Bible. But these speculations do not in any way take away from the actual truth of eternal judgment.
The danger I see with ultimate reconciliation is the complacency it creates in believers. After all, we no longer have to be witnesses if it doesn't matter! But then, why would Paul and the early disciples go through such horrific trials and beatings if they could've just laid back and wait for the comsummation? Why bother? Why be rejected or persecuted when it's much easier to take the easy way and get "purged" after we die? Actually, I have nothing to lose by believing in ultimate reconciliation, but potentially everything if I am wrong and it does matter.
So I would give you the same advise. Let the Scripture interpret it for what it plainly says, not what we want it to say. God's ways are higher than ours; His definition of justice and reasons why He would create one vessel for honor and the other for dishonor are not ours to redefine or to second-guess.
Thanks again for your thoughts on this. It's been a good conversation, even if we don't totally agree.
"And as I also said before, believing in ultimate conconciliation must "ultimately" lead one to also conclude that Satan and his demons will be saved, to which this supposition now becomes ridiculous."
I don't know what others teach...but I believe scripture makes it clear...and what you say "must ultimately lead one to conclude" is not a statement that I believe is correct unless you "assume" that it will lead them.
I don't believe that Satan or his army will be saved or reconciled to God. The creation was for a purpose. Taking from on who taught me...Paul writes about salvation by saying "He is the Saviour of all MEN...especially those who believe" and He "wills" all men to be saved." This is about man, not satan or his angels.
Justification "Adam brought condemnation to all man...Jesus Christ brings justification to all mankind" not the angels or satan.
Propitiation..."for the sins of the whole world" or mankind...not for satan or his angels.
Resurrection..."in Adam all die, in CHrist all shall be made alive...but each in his own order"
Satan and his band was created for a purpose and as we know in the end will be consumed by the fire of God...literally or figuratively...who knows. But God is an all consuming fire.
Scripture teaches that this is the purpose of man... to be raised with Christ. That's all.
"And while God can do whatever He wants, and has done everything for us to be saved, we must still "receive" the free gift by faith. That part God will not do for us (even though He knew how we would respond before He created us!)"
So I guess we delete or ignore the scripture that God is the one who gives us the faith to believe?
"I also find that the postulation that, basically, everyone was deceived for hundreds of years about eternal punishment until recently when of few of these more enligthened souls (most who are not Greek and Hebrew scholars at all) came along to straighten them all out is suspect, to say the least. It certainly sends a red flag up for me. I would tend to err on the side of the thousands of reputable scholars as to how to properly translate words from their original language and use them in their proper context."
I think if you would look into the early writings...starting with Paul whom I pretty sure was a scholar, we see that eternal damnation was not the teaching of the day and he had quite alot to say about reconcilation and restoration.
As far as as the "reputable scholars" go...I give you the "Saduccees and Pharasees"...and up until 399 A.D, this was the teaching...but the early scholars made no distinction between salvation and reconciliation. Most "scholars" in Greek and Hebrew agree what most the words mean...unless they chose to let them mean something else..or add to their meaning.
"Going back to 2 Peter 3, he concludes the thought by telling us also to be patient; to be "steadfast in the faith, and in verse 17 warning us to, "beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked." Again, the warning becomes pointless if all will be saved anyway."
Paul was striving to win the race...to receive the crown. THere are 2 resurrections in scripture. In the first, the saints reign with Christ for the 1000 years, will teach the nations and GOd will fill the earth with His glory.(I believe Paul wanted to be in on that one!) So, who would want to "fall away" and miss that? THe second resurrection at the end of the 1000 years is when the rest will be judged...in that time, I believe...what scripture has taught...that every knee will bow and tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord!..."each will be raised in their own order"...but that will be the last of all to be raised (saints first) before the consumation of all things. If I may say...when they are raised and see the GLory of GOd...I can't imagine anyone refusing to believe, confess, and worship the Almighty God.
"The danger I see with ultimate reconciliation is the complacency it creates in believers. After all, we no longer have to be witnesses if it doesn't matter!"
I find this statement absurd. Not only has God saved me..but He has covered me with His love, mercy and grace...He has given me much more of a reason to "Spread the Good News".
"So I would give you the same advise. Let the Scripture interpret it for what it plainly says, not what we want it to say."
AMen to that! Beware of your NIV, KJV, Amplified, Paraphrased...or whatever! Get back to Scripture and throw away your commentaries!
"Actually, I have nothing to lose by believing in ultimate reconciliation, but potentially everything if I am wrong and it does matter."
What could you possibly lose? Your job? Your ministry? Your faith? Salvation? Justification? Your free will?
This is the last thing I'll say and you really don't have to respond to this unless you really want to...My wife and I adopted 2 kids. WHen they came to us they were 13 years old and 6 years old. THe older one, at the age of 18 left our home, became a heavy drug addict, alcoholic, has been in and out of prison, jails, hospitals, and was in an aslyum for schizophrenia. I personally did not like this kid as a person...but I loved him with all my heart. There is not a day that goes by that I don't think about him and wonder if there is anyway I could take his place. I would die for him.
My younger son does not have the same baggage, has some issues, but I can say that he is my son! I love him and would also die for him...
If someone like me...who is selfish, sinful, corrupt, could love that way (even someone who is not of my flesh and blood...How great is our God to have loved us before the foundations of the world...knowing that HE WOULD TAKE OUR PLACE.
That is "Good News" Mel!
Thanks for being a brother! I cherish your words and do not take them lightly. I will continue to read and study...and I am willing to change and grow as God directs. Peace in Jesus. mark
Thanks again for your perspective and taking the time to help me understand why you believe what you believe. I hope I have done the same.
I must confess that what you have shared in your responses only shows me more inconsistencies with the doctrine. For instance, following the logic of ultimate reconciliation, God somehow does has the power to save all men, but not the power to save or restore Satan and the demons. So, now they are more powerful and have stronger wills than God; that is, if we carry out the reasoning of ultimate reconciliation.
In addition, that God would care for all mankind but not care the least bit for the angels who, by the way, are also His creation. So it seems that this teaching is actually a quasi-consummation of "all things" (Eph.1:10). And "all things" doesn't actually mean "all things in heaven and which are on the earth."
Furthermore, that it's perfectly okay for God to destroy forever and ever some of His creation but not okay to destroy human sinners. And that eternal life means forever on the one hand, but not in regard to eternal punishment on the other (both use exactly the same Greek words). It's amazing how these teachers pick and choose how to define words to fit their conclusions!
I'm really not trying to be sarcastic here, only trying to point out the inconsistencies.
And there are inconsistencies with the doctrine in general (what you didn't directly bring up here), that man has no will to cooperate with God to be saved in this life, but he somehow has the ability to make the choice to finally repent in the "purging," or in some future age, because now, somehow, he has more knowledge (or purging)that will bring him to saving faith.
And on this issue of free will. Even though you say we don't have free will, God apparently isn't "sovereign enough" to save most people the first time. He needs several tries with most people, even though they have no will of their own in the matter, before He can overpower all of them, using various ways and purgings to finally make them succumb to His "dragging."
So I'm confused...what do you actually mean by God's sovereignty? For if, by the reasoning you laid out, that God is never allowed to "limit" or allow free will in order to keep His sovereignty, and His goal is to save all humans, then why are the results so abysmal in this age? After all, it's all in His hands, right? Why does it take several tries (or several ages)even for God to succeed with most people?
Apparently, God has to wait more than one lifetime for some to repent. I would conclude that some must be harder or more ignorant than others, but that implies human will or volition, which is not allowed in this scenario. So, is it quasi-sovereignty (or at least, ineffective sovereignty) as well as quasi-consummation? It's confusing and contradictory, to say the least.
As a brother, even though I know full well that I am not convincing you of what I am saying, I would still caution you in this regard; that if we must "beware" of basically all the English translations of the Bible to make our beliefs work, that should at least give us pause for reconsideration about what we do believe. Frankly, that's a huge "beware" to me!
And when you say that I should "get back to Scripture," are you suggesting I only read from the original copies of the text, or only in the Hebrew, Greek copies, or at least only non-English versions then? Of course, that means I must also throw out my concordance and lexicons because the definitions are tainted by man too. And throwing out all commentaries (which I don't currently use anyway) would also mean throwing out any books, tapes, or any commentary on the Internet or otherwise that promotes ultimate reconciliation.
The truth is, God spoke and rest is commentary. We all look at Scripture with our own bias and call it "being Scriptural." Apparently, we still do have the will to choose to believe what we want to believe, either way. I will leave it at that.
Again, thanks for hanging in there with me on this! I really do appreciate your heart for God. Would that we all walk in truth and light and in God's love. And I also want to thank you for all your encouragements in the past. I hope we can continue "wrestling" with these things in the future as brothers of our Lord Jesus Christ!
God bless,
Mel
Wrestling is good! Not that either of us have time for it...but it's still good!
Here's hopefully my short answers to some of your rebuttle...
"I must confess that what you have shared in your responses only shows me more inconsistencies with the doctrine. For instance, following the logic of ultimate reconciliation, God somehow does has the power to save all men, but not the power to save or restore Satan and the demons. So, now they are more powerful and have stronger wills than God; that is, if we carry out the reasoning of ultimate reconciliation."
Well...I think I made my point clear, but I guess my problem with the "consistency "that has been taught from most pulpits is that "God is love and full of mercy and grace...but, if you don't believe and accept that, you burn for eternity because His mercy and grace was not enough....nor was His sacrifice." As far as Satan and his demons..scripture doesn't tell us that they will be redeemed...but if God wants them to be...who am I too argue.
"Furthermore, that it's perfectly okay for God to destroy forever and ever some of His creation but not okay to destroy human sinners. And that eternal life means forever on the one hand, but not in regard to eternal punishment on the other (both use exactly the same Greek words). It's amazing how these teachers pick and choose how to define words to fit their conclusions!"
I have no idea what you are trying to say in the paragraph above...who are these "teachers"?
"And when you say that I should "get back to Scripture," are you suggesting I only read from the original copies of the text, or only in the Hebrew, Greek copies, or at least only non-English versions then?"
I'm not saying just you...I'm saying all of us. Of course we need to use our translations...but we need to be aware, "THEY ARE TRANSLATIONS! Translated to fit the understanding or "doctrine" of the translator. As far as throwing out all the books...I've pretty much done that! I do like to read some of the history stuff...just to try and figure a few things out.
"The truth is, God spoke and rest is commentary. We all look at Scripture with our own bias and call it "being Scriptural."
I call it "a journey"....and a wrestling match with brothers and sisters....and God. I actually want to do and be whom God created me to be...for His glory.
"Apparently, we still do have the will to choose to believe what we want to believe, either way. I will leave it at that."
I really do believe that as we continue the journey...the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth.
I can "choose" to continue down this road or not...I can "choose" to pick up my ball and bat and not play...but what is it that makes me do these things? Proverbs 20:24 Man's steps are ordered by the Lord...
Mel, it's easy to see the inconsistency in all of us. That's why we're human! I have no agenda. I really am on a journey and asking the Holy Spirit to lead.
I appreciate your writings...cause I know that you write from the heart most of the time...that's why I am doing this! I really don't have much time to do it! But I am thankful that you are willing to teach and help me struggle...and I hope I will help and encourage you to look at things a bit differently and struggle with issues.
Keep looking to Jesus...BTW - It's obvious you are a good man. mark
I appreciate your heart, Mark. We are all on a journey together and we only know in part, no matter how much we think we know! I certainly only know in part.
But I do not see any consistency in preaching a God of love and mercy who destroys sinners because that's what Scripture says He does, even if no one ever preached it.
We cannot preach a one-sided Gospel. Then it is no longer the Gospel. The fact is, God is not a God of mercy to the unrepentant at all. The Bible never teaches that. They are not His children either as I have already outlined. His "kindness toward us" in Eph.2:7 only applies to us "in Christ." Those who do not accept Christ are His enemies. All things only work together for good to those who love Him (Rom.8:28), not everyone.
No matter what our personal feelings about it, we cannot preach an incomplete God...so I say, we cannot totally ignore these Scriptures either. It's a two-edged Sword that cuts both ways, and both "edges" must be taught and understood. Otherwise, that would indeed be making God in our own image, going to either extreme, rather than teaching the God of the whole Bible.
For God is also a God of justice and wrath, and unless we repent and turn our hearts to Jesus for mercy, we will not experience His mercy but only His anger. Scripture says we are to "humble ourselves..." This is something we must do, even though He provides the grace to do it. But He won't strive with a man forever; like Esau, they can go beyond the point of repentance. And make no mistake about it, God does not change...He is same yesterday, today, and forever...His anger is hot against sinners.
Psalm 7:11 says that "God is angry with the wicked every day," and if they do not repent, He will "sharpen His sword..." against them to destroy them.
Consider Paul's warning to the Roman Christians concerning their being "grafted in" and could just as easily be "grafted out" if they were not careful...in Romans 11:22..."Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." This verse is conditional upon our "continuing in His goodness" and if there was no way we could not continue in it, the warning would be pointless. And our "continuing" depends on our using our will to believe by faith.
It's amazing to me that those who scoff at preachers who preach about sinners in danger of "hell" (or Lake of Fire) seem to totally ignore (or twist the clear meaning) of Scripture that clearly say there is indeed a danger. Paul said in 2 Cor.5:11, "Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men." There is a reason to warn people.
Furthermore, Paul said in Romans 1:18-32 that God's anger was against unbelievers because they suppress the truth, and that all are without excuse (even without the Bible because they see God's creation), and so God gave them over to their vile passions and delusions. This is not God demonstrating His mercy, but His wrath and condemnation. God will have nothing to do with the unrepentant; He is not even listening to them.
These are not the words of an angry hellfire and brimstone preacher, but God's Word. Not to mention, again, this passage (along with just about every other passage in the Bible) proves that man has a free will to be reprobate. And also that God will give up on them and harden their hearts when they refuse Him. I could go on and on with the many other warnings, but time does not permit.
You asked me about who is teaching the stuff I mentioned. As I said, some of the things I brought up were the ulitimate reconcilation teachings in general, not necessarily what you brought up. But the teachings are all over the Internet. Two teachers I could bring up offhand are Dr. Loyal Hurley and A.P. Adams.
For instance, Dr. Hurley said this is his work, "The Outcome of Infinite Grace" that scholars have mistakenly mistranslated "eonian" punishment as punishment that goes on for eternity, but he's perfectly okay with it meaning life that goes on for eternity when referring to salvation. Both use the exact same Greek words, so he is purposely being selective with his definitions (and deceptive, I might add.)
He also mentions that sinners will be purged in the next life until they turn to the Lord. And this can only mean to me that God wasn't "sovereign enough" to get them saved the first time!
Ironically, it also proves that they must have free will to resist, some apparently longer than others. He makes many other inconsistent and down right wrong statements that I do not have the time to go into here.
It's also interesting that these people teach that the Lake of Fire will destroy Satan forever but it it is only used to "chastise" sinners. It's beyond me why people would agree with this nonsense!
In your response, you said Satan will not be redeemed. I agree with you. That's my point. And that's precisely why you cannot in any way define "consummation of all things in heaven and upon the earth..." (Eph.1:0) to mean that everyone eventually gets saved, unless you include every creature that this verse includes.
Besides the fact that Scripture teaches that only those "in Christ" are those who believe, you cannot take the "consummation of all things..." to mean ultimate salvation, but only that it means the ultimate Lordship and rulership of Christ. God will put all His enemies under His feet. And from Genesis to Revelation, when God does this to His enemies, it's to destroy them, not to save them.
I also mentioned that how this doctrine of ultimate reconciliation defines God's sovereignty does not allow for the very thing they say men will do in the ages to come. First, if these unrepentant sinners have no will to resist God now, why do they all of a sudden have the will to need purging in the Lake of Fire in order to change their hearts in the next age? Actually, this doesn't sound like the God of love to me here either, but only manipulation and control. And how come our sin is completely taken away by the Blood of Christ and no longer judged, but these other poor sinners must be purged of their sins themselves in the judgment? Again, this makes for beautiful Catholic theology on purgatory, but it's not taught in the Bible! You can read these writings for yourself, these are the very things these people teach, either implicitly or explicitly. It's pretty easy to find on the Internet.
So...we could go and on about this but I think we've both made our points. I, too, am still always seeking God and know that, even if I'm wrong about these things, He will keep me in His care.
Thanks again for "wrestling!" God's best to you and your family, my friend. And, btw, I will pray for your son.
Mel
Thanks Mel. I never heard or read anything from the teachers you mentioned...I agree though, his eonian statement is out of line in the way he presented it. I don't spend my time finding folks on the internet to "teach" me. The way I found you was that I hit my "next blog" button by mistake when I was working on my business blog one day!
Anyway...You know I could come back with a bunch more scriptures and thoughts and...but I won't! We don't need to beat this to death! Like you, I believed what your have written in these rebuttles and have gone through that process and will continue...we'll never see eye to eye on this and I would imagine no 2 people would on much of anything until the Lord comes back and straightens us all out!
My son is a believer...and the Lord is doing amazing things in his life as he struggles with all he has been through and will continue to go through. Thanks for praying for him. His name is Charlie.
Keep writing and I'll keep reading...I'm sure I won't stay quiet each time but I'll try to not offend...but to encourage and bring in thoughts and perspectives that hopefully will make you and me "wrestle"! Blessings, mark
Okay. I was referring to your older adopted son who you said was in and out of prison and asylum, etc. Is he now a believer, too? We have many previously hardened people in our church, some even from prison and with mental problems, who are like docile teddy bears now! You wouldn't even know they are the same people! God is in the business of changing lives, regardless of how we understand that He does it!
Either way, I will pray for both sons. Thanks again for everything, and thanks for hitting "next" button too, bro!
God bless,
Mel
Both our sons are believers. My older one is in rehab right now and doing well. He says he wants to be a counselor and help others who have gone through the fire like him. I know he will struggle with his addictions...but I also know he has an incredible heart and wants to do the right things. Thanks for praying for him and thanks again for your ministry. mark
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